Moved to OT forum. By all means, continue there.. it's just now getting interesting....

Phantazm

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Leviticus 19:28

You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the LORD

What do you think?

I am NOT a bible-reader, but I must ask, Isn't the part of the OLD Covenant??? Don't we live under the new one??! Food for thought!

Boy.. this should be REALLY interesting. Here are my thoughts... (If I had a Bible in my office I'd post some quotes.. I will when I get home)...

And just a quick note... I want this thread to stay on topic please.. I think this may potentially have a lot to offer

Christianity in General
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1) Belive In Jesus Christ as Savior
2) Live As Best You Can
3) Do What's Right

I could expand on this quite a bit.. but as I said above, let's stay on topic.

The best exapmle of a true Christian I know is heavily pierced and tattooed.

Has about 2" stretched lobes, several facial piercings, and who knows what else?

My point... his heart is as big as Texas.. even bigger. He is an ordained (sp?) minister, and the way he lives his life sets a FANTASTIC example for others in my opinion. He literally, feeds the hungry, clothes the homeless, etc...

Wonderful man. Going to hell because his 2" ear lobes? I think not.. not for me to judge, but I sincerely doubt that God will judge us on appearances, but rather, our actions.

As usual.. just my 2 cents.. and I'll add more when I go home....

Religion is a question mark for me but Phantazm you already have Christianity wrong.
1.)Have no other God
2.)Love thy neighbor as thy self
3.)All the other stuff
Not to be picky but if you look at the bible #2 seems to be pretty God damn important, most people overlook it however. I talked to a pastor once, she said stretched lobes and a few piercings should have no effect on what kind of a christian you want to be.

I'm not quite sure what your post means... Adding to mine?
Agree 100% here. but again, not sure if your #1 corresponds (sp?) with my #1. At any rate.. I agree 100% with your #1.

Again.. agree 100%
10 Commandments I assume?
I too have talked to a pastor (not the same one I mentioned earlier), and she tends to agree 100% with you, as do I.

Interesting food for thought. And I ask how am I "wrong" as you put it. What about the statements I made are inaccurate?

Just wondering.. I like debates..on just about anything.. not confrontation (sp? again), but simply to share opinions

That said... lets keep it going.. I truly do think this will turn into a VERY interesting thread with MANY viewpoints.

1) That is one translation. Many others do not have the words "tattoo marks" in them. Or they place them before "for the dead" along with the cuttings.

2) Yes, that is OT (Old Testament, not Off Topic). If anyone is going to take any of us to task for having tattoos, ask them if the keep Kosher? Do they grow their hair and beard? No cutting it? Do they send their women out of the household to live away during the days when they are "unclean"? haeven forbid, they don't eayt pork, or put cheese on their salami sandwich, do they? Or are we to be made to feel bad because someone wants to selectively pick and choose which portions of the OT non-Jews can ignore, and which portions they can try to ram down our throats to suit their own prejudices?

3) The whole subject don't mean squat to those of us who choose to live our lives with a morality and spirituality which have nothing to do with words in that, or any other book.

Great post!!!

Hi! I am new here, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. This happens to be a subject that I have discussed with a Biblical scholar. According to him, these laws were not put in place for the general public. They were for Levitican monks, who at the time were being lured away from God to cults of the dead. In this same passage of Leviticus, it also states that a man must make no baldness upon his head, nor trim a corner from his beard. They must also not eat food prepared with the food meant for a divorced woman, nor could they eat food prepared by a divorced woman. They could not wear blended fiber clothing, or eat shellfish. So, if these laws were meant for everyone, anyone that has ever had a haircut, shave, shrimp for dinner, worn a poly/cotton blended t-shirt, or eaten at a table with a divorced woman is in the same boat as someone tattooed, branded or intentionally scarred themselves. This particular scholar had a lovely tattoo of a cross with roses and a banner. The banner said "God". I had this same discussion in a chat room with a rabbi. He said that was all correct. We also discussed the myth that someone that is Jewish and tattooed cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetary according to their tradition. The only reason a Jew could not be buried in consecrated ground is if they commit suicide.

What do I think about it? I think old testament laws were changed ofter Jesus came to earth in human form. If what you are inplying is that pierced and tattooed people are evil, and will not go to heaven, the you are highly confused, and ignoring ALL other parts of the Bible. If you are saying that I will go to hell for being pierced (old testament law) then you will probably go to hell for not sacrificing lambs and other animals in the name of God to cleanse you of your sin (also old testament law, no longer in effect after He died for our sins because He was the ultimate sacrifice). John 3:16 does not have a sentance fallowing it that says "unless pierced". Even if it were a sin, (Which I believe it isn't),in Romans, it says, "For if we confess our sin, He is faithfull and just to forgive us our sin, and cleanse up from all unrighteousness"...which is a basic fundamental truth in the Bible...right next to "whosoever believes in Him shall not parish, but have everlasting life" If you feel that you are sinning or are going to go to hell for body modifications, then by all means, feel free to take yours out, and way to go for being committed to your personal beliefs. If I felt that way, I would take mine out too, but while I am a Christian, I have found nothing in the Bible that has yet given me any reason not to continue in my piercing ways, and I am looking foward to getting more in the near future.

What do I think about it? I think old testament laws were changed ofter Jesus came to earth in human form. If what you are inplying is that pierced and tattooed people are evil, and will not go to heaven, the you are highly confused, and ignoring ALL other parts of the Bible. If you are saying that I will go to hell for being pierced (old testament law) then you will probably go to hell for not sacrificing lambs and other animals in the name of God to cleanse you of your sin (also old testament law, no longer in effect after He died for our sins because He was the ultimate sacrifice). John 3:16 does not have a sentance fallowing it that says "unless pierced". Even if it were a sin, (Which I believe it isn't),in Romans, it says, "For if we confess our sin, He is faithfull and just to forgive us our sin, and cleanse up from all unrighteousness"...which is a basic fundamental truth in the Bible...right next to "whosoever believes in Him shall not parish, but have everlasting life" If you feel that you are sinning or are going to go to hell for body modifications, then by all means, feel free to take yours out, and way to go for being committed to your personal beliefs. If I felt that way, I would take mine out too, but while I am a Christian, I have found nothing in the Bible that has yet given me any reason not to continue in my piercing ways, and I am looking foward to getting more in the near future.

not one for religion myself as i feel it causes to many devides between people.(or though[sp?] you could say something similar about piercings and the way people dress)

on the going the hell for piercings thing, i dont know if there is anything after death so im going to make the best of this life.

be nice to people. thats the best way to stay out of "hell" and make life more injoyable for every one.

What do I think about it?

I don't accept arguments from authority. Least of all arguments from authority that try to tell me what's right and what's wrong.

leviticus is a rulebook for the jews to extricate non-kosher (unclean) cultures from their lifestyle. its a damning section of the cultural ignorance and racism of those who wrote the bible.

the reason for 'not making those marks' is the same reason for another passage in leviticus stating that 'thou shalt not wear garments of mixed fabrics including linen.'

oh boy, god hates my tshirt i am going to hell?

no, old jews hated old pagans and to set themselves apart they created these rules. (because linen was imported from non-kosher cultures.)

the problem is that the history that surrounds the bible is blighted by the faith contructed around it for the purpose of obscurance.

the bible is a pretty darn good record of what was going on at the time, in that partof the world, if your systems of faith don't necessitate that you blind yourself from the perspectives of cultural bias and fact.

OK, here goes... Thank you for your interest in this thread. First of all, I just want to clear the air. I am a devout Christian with many piercings and with plan for more (don't freak out, TheFariesFire). I posted this thread simply to (like the title sayd) "sir the crowd" and see where everyone stood on the subject. I think I've let it run long enough w/out responding.

Explaination:

Thank you Phantazm, Chuck, freep, and others who seem to know what they're talking about. Yes, the verse is from the Old Testament and is contained in a jewish rule book. Sometimes, the english translation can be scewed, but this is not one of those times. The tranlsation is exactly as it appears in english. However, just because it is in an old rule book does not mean that it is to be taken lightly, since it was decreed by God and is in Holy Scripture. There's alot of wisdom in this book, though it tends to get out-weighed by what we now view as ridiculouse these days. All of those strange rules had a very good place in that time and allowed the Jews to live healthily and to higher standards than any other culture at that time. What we now think is obviouse (get rid of mildew and don't eat moldy meat) was not thought of then.

Anywho, this verse was decreed by God to set his people apart from all other nations. The only reason to be tattooed or pierced was to attract the attention of a foreign god (ie. in a sacrifice or pagan ritual). We see this being peformed in I Kings 18 when Elijah has a showdown with the prophets of Ba'al and the pagan prophets cut themselves as they dance around the altar. So, this verse has cultural significence for that time period. If the Jews were to get a tattoo for any reason (even if it said "I love Jehovah"), it would be seen as a pagan ritual.

God set His people apart to show that these were the ones who He would use to bring salvation to the world. Jesus was a Jew. Other people of other cultures were also saved during that time period, not just jews (ie. Melchizedek, king of Salem). The Jews (or hebrews) were simply the ones in whom God worked in History. He is a Holy God, meaning that he is erfect and does not tolerate any sin. The fact that he alowed life to continue after the Flood (with Noah) shows His grace (uh, oh...church word) and these rules simply showed the Hebrews what sin was and how to avoid it, though they seem to have enjoyed not avoiding it at times.

Well, thanks for putting up with this long reply. I only wanted an argument, not an altercation. I just thought I'd give my opinions on the subject and clear up any miscomceptions. Thanks for being so open to this. If you have any questions you want to ask me, you can e-mail me at: rymisoda@insightbb.com.

BTW: for you Christians out there, another verse you might wanna look out for is I Corinthians 6:19

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own

If you look at the context of this verse, Paul is writing about avoiding sexual immorality, not piercings/tattoos.

In conclusion, I've looked far and wide and cannot find anything in scripture that comdemns tattoos and piercings.

I must say, there is quite a bit of good conversation going on here. I always love to hear others' views and beliefs. Not that it forces me to re-examine mine, but if one keeps an open mind, he / she will most likely learn from others' beliefs, even if one does not necessarily agree with them.

That said, great thread guys! Nice Going Sode.. you certainly did "stir the crowd"!

i would be more interested if this were not another brick wall religous argument. what i mean by brick wall is that a concensus in generality among points -for furtherment of a series of beliefs- cannot be obtained in purity.

in debate, there are things called logical fallacies. these are flaws within an argument that make their points invalid, even if logical points are achieved.

the flaw with a religious argument as per usual is that most people who are believers in a god will not argue without statements that through their faith are fact to them but not fact to their debating partner.

example:
"this verse was decreed by God to set his people apart from all other nations."

to him, this statement is fact, therefore admissible as a debating point or supportive.

to me, not fact, rather; subjective term of faith, therefore not admissible. furthermore

We see this being peformed in I Kings 18 when Elijah has a showdown with the prophets of Ba'al and the pagan prophets cut themselves as they dance around the altar.

here again is this cultural bias.

we see that there in I Kings, which when written represented 1% of the world's current population...

the people who can truly defend their faith can do it with tangibles that non-believers of their particular faith cannot deny.

i would suggest reading more Kant, Hobbes, and for good measure, even Milton.

I'm gonna go post a poll in the OT forum.. (nevermind this... cant post poll there)

Check out The Poll and let's see how "The Crowd" thinks..

freep:

Thank you for analyzing my post, seriously. It's good to know that there are stil people with enough bravery to intelligently oppose ideas. I was not attempting a religious debate and am well aware of the many fallacies in the post. But the fact remains that there can be no fallacies because I wasn't giving an argument, but explaining the context of a verse in scripture as understood by those in that time period. I would love to debate you on the points of Christianity, without religious bias, but I don't think that this board is a good place to do it (unless we get permission from the moderators). If you would like to discuss it, please e-mail me. If we are allowed to debate this on the message board, it would be more convenient...whadaya say, Phantazm? If not we could do it on an off-topic board. Are you up to it, freep?

I see absolutely NO reason not to begin posting "The Debate" in the OT forum... I'll PM the Mods of that forum a link to this and see what they think....