you have got. to be . kidding. me. (note my excessive use of periods in incorrect places).

Do you think they realize that by trying to outlaw the utterance of hateful or untrue things about religion that they are calling shenanigans on themselves?

i'm gonna put my money on no, for that one.

so the next time they call us all a bunch of infidels, does that gives us the right to drop a black hole on them?

Oh, fer fuck's sake. I need to re-read that, but...

Any one who thinks that we're just one happy global family needs to check the level in their soy latte. I wish that I could say that we could all just live together and be an integrated global society, but apparently, we can't.

As much as my heart believes in free immigration and the inherent goodness of people, my brain is telling me that if immigrants can't assimilate, then they need to rethink their move. If you're Muslim, and you don't like the laws in Israel, DON'T LIVE THERE! Live in one of the many, many countries where there IS sharia law. If you move to America, you should damn well learn how to speak English, too. It's like moving to Africa and complaining that it's hot, and you want cooler weather, or like a Jamaican moving to Alaska and wanting them to turn up the heat.

It's farked.

What it boils down to is don't move somewhere and expect people to change their laws, customs, and mores because of what it was like "back home".

PDBsg and I have had many, many discussions about the differences between the North and the South. My take is that we would all be better off if the union had split during the war. If one half of the country wants to live one way and have its own set of laws, then they should. We are a divided nation. You will never get the majority of "stereotypical Southerners" to give up their guns, pro-life views, or other conservative issues. Same way that the North will always run more liberal, most Northerners will vote Democratic, support pro-choice issues and the like.

Whatever- I just got off of work and sat on the thruway for an hour and a half, so I'm rambling. Let me re-read the thing and come back to the discussion later.

I'm going to side with the southerners in one aspect on this one. Since it appears we are heading toward international law denying free speech, I am damn well keeping all of my guns.

Them's some broad brushes you're painting with, Phal.

Yeah, I know- that's why I quit while I was ahead. Or behind, depending on how you look at it. A few minutes after posting, I realized this is one of those internet moments where I've had discussions and there's lots of shades of grey which aren't going to come out well in print no matter how long I type.

Just trust that it was a series of long and insightful conversation with no ill will intended.

I could sit here and try to explain what's in my head for the rest of the night, but it ain't going to sound any better, and nowhere near how I want it to come across.

If some day North America turns into a guerrilla war zone with genocide and unjust/unlawful practices being used, would you hope that the people of Africa, South America, Europe, Asia, etc would accept you into their culture and their countries? Would you change your religion? The way you dress? Would you accept that your educations might mean nothing there? If you don't speak the native language but need a job would you be able to learn a language in a couple weeks? A couple months? Would you be able to handle constant discrimination about how 'whitey' can't speak Punjabi/Swahili/Hausa/etc? Would you like to be addressed and talked about like, "I met this white/catholic person the other day who..."? What about your name? Like the way it's pronounced? I hope not because to other people it's a string of letters that make no sense. Would you be able to handle that not everyone likes or trusts people from North America? They might even go so far as to treat you like terrorists - could you deal with that, and put a smile on?

Phal, this wasn't really directed at you. Just made me think.

Immigration and cultural assimilation are separate but related issues. Some people are taken in by nations that grant them many more freedoms than the places they fled. They still see fit for some reason to make outrageous demands of those who try to help them, then spit in the faces of those who give the shirts off their backs. They scream prejudice, intolerance, and racism when the one freedom they are not given is that to piss all over those who are not just like them. They want for themselves what they would never grant anyone outside of their own community.

The original issue that I posted about was the fact that the United Nations voted on and passed in the general assembly an anti blasphemy measure. Although it is not binding yet, it is a step toward international law taking jurisdiction over not only the US Constitution, but any law anywhere in the world that guarantees free speech. It would make it a crime anywhere on the planet to say something that offends someone with regard to their religion. It would make religion untouchable, beyond the reach of any sort of criticism.

This can only lead to bad things. If we continue down this path, and this but one part of a 10 year plan to spread Islam across the globe, there will be blood and lots of it.

It's an interesting topic, but I think you overstate the case for international law taking jurisdiction over the Constitution? The International Criminal Court is probably the only judicial body to exert its influence over international borders, and its focus is more on crimes against humanity.

This is tangential, but after Abu Ghraib and related events involving rendition, I'm not convinced that the US shouldn't be held beneath the ICC.

Regarding the original topic, though, there were 42 abstained votes. It's a challenging topic, and I suspect a lot of people are trying to find a way to defend against religious persecution without presenting a case for fundamentalist extremism.

GBP, you forget that I'm Jewish. My people have been shuttled from nation to nation for centuries. I would do what I had to do.

I also moved to Australia with the intent of living there permanently- I learned the slang, the culture and the best way to approach daily life. I didn't expect everyone to change for me. One may think that Australia is not so big of a jump, but it has more of a difference to the US than you would think.

You make a really good point, though. I have thought about that often.

I know it goes both ways - we need to accept them, and they need to make the effort to get along here without special treatment in every aspect of life, if that makes sense. But it's the whole idea of immigration, the way it's viewed. We take for granted what we have here, and it's almost like when someone immigrates here they aren't worthy of the same respect, the same rights. I absolutely LOVE our laws here, but the people? Sometimes the people around me stand for exactly what Canada doesn't stand for, if that makes sense. For a nation that prides ourselves on our multiculturalism and diversity, there sure are a lot of people who discriminate against immigrants.

As for the original topic... I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest. I'm not going to rant about it seeing as I don't know enough about it. I will say, it sounds extreme and more damaging than it would be beneficial.

I'm an equal opportunity bigot...I don't like religeon. Doesn't matter what color you paint it, the world would be a better place w/o it.